Once in a blue moon I get these emails that just crack me up.
So one of my customers send me this:
I was having these days a quarrel with one of my friends, who stated that meat is crucial for the development of the human brain and that that has always been so. He also said that the brain of our pre-ancestors (those "monkey-men") was able to develop only because of the fact that they regularly started to eat meat. And because of those meat proteins the brain was ablae to develop from 300 grams into 1,7 kg. And that if it hadn’t been for the consumption of meat, we would still be in a monkey-like stage.
Also he stated that it is unhealthy for the development of a child (and its brain in particulary) to be raised up on a raw food diet. I have no contra-arguments.
Let’s help this fellow out.
My first advice: don’t get into the argument. Just walk away. Tell your friend something like this ‘thanks for your opinion. If you choose to eat meat, that’s your choice and I respect that. I choose not to, and I hope you respect my choice as I do yours. If I develop an obvious brain-defect as a result of my diet, I’ll come back for a second helping of your opinion.’
That usually gets people off my back. But if that doesn’t work I follow it up with something a bit more direct. I usually say that everybody has an a**hole and an opinion, content of both of which are equally valuable to me. Yes, that’s rude, but at that point it’s obvious he doesn’t respect my choice and want to ‘convert’ me. I really have no interest in dealing with people like that anymore.
I’m saying this, and from a lot of experience and frustration, these so-called debates are not about diet. They are more about religion. For many diet has become a religion.
As a Christian it doesn’t help you to debate with a Muslim over the benefits of your religion. And this applies to any pair of religions. Similarly it does you no good to debate over the merits of one diet over another. That’s because rationality rarely enters these discussions.
When I was more active at acne forums I used to get into these discussion. Now I just couldn’t care less because they usually end up to what I call ‘food fights’ where people sling each other with different scientific studies or websites that support their opinion. The winner is the one with most ’science’ backing their case, or the one who manages to sound more rational and unbiased.
Common sense and rationality are always the first victims. Manners and politeness are usually the next in line.
This is exactly in line with the way the human mind works.
I go into detail of how this happens in my upcoming book ‘How to be happy and optimistic before you get clear‘ (that may or may not be the final name). But basically our beliefs makes themselves true to us. What you believe literally comes true to you, or at least seems to be true, which, as far as your actual experience of life is concerned, is the same thing.
All the incoming information and everything that happens to you if filtered through your beliefs. It’s deleted, distorted and generalized until it fits what you believe. It’s like a looking at a world through colored glasses. Everything is tinted by the glasses. Logic is twisted to fit the beliefs, I’ll show you an example of this a bit later.
Contrary evidence be damned. It’s just wiped out or ignored. Even in the face of contradictory evidence people are quite capable of convincing themselves that their particular diet is the best. Just like they are capable of convincing themselves that aliens have taken over their fridge and telling them to prepare for that arrival of the mother ship.
Arguing against these beliefs is useless. People defend their beliefs to tooth and nail.
And unfortunately in many cases these people get fanatical. They cannot tolerate opposing beliefs. If you don’t follow their dietary dogma, they feel compelled to ‘convert’ you. Or at least to get into an argument with you. From my experience this behavior is far more common in meat eaters and low-carb people than in vegetarians. But it could just be a reflection of the sites I’ve visited and read frequently. Vegetarians are also guilty of this. Many raw food groups and gurus also flirt with religion in their approach to diet.
So let’s look at the original question and how it relates to this. Then I’ll give you more examples (if you haven’t doses off : )).
The argument that meat was crucial to the development of the human brain is a perfect example of how the religious aspect of a diet twists the original research and blows the thing out of proportion.
I looked into the matter and found the original research that touched this whole thing off. Here’s the summary of the findings.
It was this new meat diet, full of densely-packed nutrients, that provided the catalyst for human evolution, particularly the growth of the brain, said Katharine Milton, an authority on primate diet.
Without meat, said Milton, it’s unlikely that proto humans could have secured enough energy and nutrition from the plants available in their African environment at that time to evolve into the active, sociable, intelligent creatures they became. Receding forests would have deprived them of the more nutritious leaves and fruits that forest-dwelling primates survive on, said Milton. (emphasis added).
Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet
So the only aspect of meat that made is, according to this thesis (in other words speculation) crucial is availability. It was simply a conveniently available source of calories, and some nutrients, that the people had before obtained from plant foods.
And the author of this these continues.
Milton said that her theories do not reflect on today’s vegetarian diets, which can be completely adequate, given modern knowledge of nutrition.
"We know a lot about nutrition now and can design a very satisfactory vegetarian diet," said Milton, a professor in the Department of Environmental Science, Policy & Management.
Meat-eating was essential for human evolution, says UC Berkeley anthropologist specializing in diet
Of course the fact that the author is of this speculative thesis herself said that vegetarian diet is sufficient to meet the needs of human deters the religious meat eaters from using her research to back up their arguments.
Even beyondveg.com, the flagship of anti-vegetarian and anti-raw food websites, quotes research that says it mostly comes to getting sufficient calories.
These results imply that changes in diet quality during hominid evolution were linked with the evolution of brain size. The shift to a more calorically dense diet was probably needed in order to substantially increase the amount of metabolic energy being used by the hominid brain. Thus, while nutritional factors alone are not sufficient to explain the evolution of our large brains, it seems clear that certain dietary changes were necessary for substantial brain evolution to take place.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-4a.shtml
It’s not enough that they use only a selected aspects of the research to support their claims, then they take the case further by venturing into these mind bending contradictions.
The thesis continues that because human brain grew in size (and in energy demand) other body parts shrinked to allow the brain to have more energy. According to the theory the human gut took the hit.
Since gut size is associated with dietary quality (DQ), and the gut must shrink to support encephalization, this suggests that a high-quality diet is required for encephalization. That is, a higher-quality diet (more easily digested, and liberating more energy/nutrients per unit of digestive energy expended) allows a smaller gut, which frees energy for encephalization.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-4b.shtml
And this they use to justify meat eating???
Which one these is of higher quality (more easily digested, and liberating more energy/nutrients per unit of digestive energy expended, to quote the site)? Fruits, which require 15 to 30 minutes to digest, or meat that sits in your stomach for hours? Which one is going to liberate more energy/nutrients per unit of digestive energy?
It boggles my mind how these people can use that as an argument for eating meat. Digesting the complex proteins and breaking down the muscle tissues takes a huge amount of digestive energy.
Anyway, this is more about religion that about rationality.
The argument that not eating meat is bad for the development of child’s brain is in glaring violation of reality. If meat was somehow essential to the development of the human brain how is it possible that we have vegetarians, sometimes in many generation, with apparently healthy, happy, and, dare I say, even intelligent children?
According to the fear mongering of meat eaters these kids should be in a monkey-like state and possibly locked into a zoo. If that were the case I have a feeling I would have read about it somewhere.
On a vegetarian board we found another point of view to this discussion about brain evolution.
Thus, from what I learned, the correlation is less with the advent of hunting and meat, and more to do with the need for a larger brain to handle the complicated social orders that humans develop. This also coincides with other animals that have relatively large intelligence. Macaws and gorrilas, for example, do not eat meat, but do have a complex social network that nessesitates complex brains. Dolphins and crows aren’t intelligent because they dine on meat, but because they have very intricate and shifting social systems which nessesitate a complex brain to handle the ever shifting and changing needs to the group, and of the individual.
You pick the explanation which makes more sense. Meat or the demand for brain power as a driving factor of brain evolution.
Now that I’m on the roll let’s keep going.
This is again from beyondveg.com
Those who promote (obsessive) fear as a motivation for their "ideal, perfect" diet are promoting eating disorders (mental illness) rather than a healthy diet.
One does not have to go far in the raw vegan movement to find people promoting rawism using pathological fear as a major motivation factor. In particular, the following fears are often actively promoted: fear of cooked food, fear of protein, fear of mucus. Fear, if it becomes strong enough (which can happen if one believes the "party line" strongly enough), can turn a raw diet into an eating disorder similar to anorexia nervosa. Fear is not the basis for a diet; it is, however, the basis for an eating disorder.http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/claims-cred/claims-cred-1c.shtml#emot%20instab
I do agree that many raw food groups are highly dogmatic and guilty of this, consequently they also promote the high-fat version of raw foods that’s a dietary disaster.
But let’s not forget that meat promoters are equally guilty of this.
The friend of my customer was using a heavily fear-based argument. Most people who post about their vegetarian success at acne.org forum are meat with suspicions and questions about vitamin B12 (and issue that has more to do with the health of the digestive track and affects both vegetarians and meat eaters) and protein. Plus they are bombarded with horror stories of losing muscle and wasting away.
Low-carb fanatics have categorized vegetarians as weak, timid, pale and frail. Whereas meat makes people strong, sexy and athletic. Do I sense a touch of fear mongering there?
Another ‘quality’ raw fooders are accused of and is used as against raw food diet.
The hostility displayed toward those who disagree also strongly discourages dissent and independent thinking. This situation is a fascinating psychological phenomenon, except when you happen to be a target of the mindless hostility displayed by certain extremists! Such behavior, when evident, speaks directly to the lack of credibility and the mental balance (or apparent lack thereof) of the incurably fanatical dietary advocate.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/claims-cred/claims-cred-1c.shtml#emot%20instab
A recent diet discussion at acne.org forum gives a nice example of this. It’s also a perfect example of how the beliefs people hold twist their logic and arguments.
The discussion is title Eat real food in it’s natural state, Your body will take care of the rest. I just chose this thread because I’ve been following it recently and it follows the same pattern as every other diet discussion there.
The original poster argues that we should eat foods in their natural state in order to stay healthy. I fully agree with that. It’s just that the term natural state is surprisingly fluid. By the way, this is not against the original poster. He’s just parroting the same arguments I’ve seen on so many other sites and in so many other discussions.
So the gist of the message is to keep foods in their natural state. The poster begins with animal products.
Animal foods- Don’t remove the fat from meat, don’t remove the yolks from eggs, don’t remove the fat from milk. Get unpasteurized, non-homogenized milk if you can. Don’t limit yourself to only muscle meats, the organ meats are by far the most nutritious part of the animal. Eat wild game if you can, if not try to find grass-fed, pasture raised meat. Don’t avoid saturated fat and cholesterol, our bodies have been consuming these substances for millions of years and we are well adapted to them.
But when he/she turns to vegetables the fluidity of the term natural state starts to show up.
Vegetables- tubers, roots, leafy greens; the more the merrier. Many vegetables are more easily absorbed by the body when they have been cooked and had fat added to them. Raw veggies aren’t necessarily better for you, they are the hardest for the body to digest and absorb.
So all of a sudden it’s ok to not only cook your vegetables but also add fat into them. Now, to me that seems like altering foods from their natural state, but maybe it’s just me.
When we move to grains the term changes again.
Grains- don’t eat them. They must be processed and refined to be edible. If you ate a grain in it’s natural state you would be eating a seed. Grains have only made up a significant part of our diet for the last 10,000 years, which is "coincidentally" when all diseases of civilization began to arise (including acne). Our bodies are not equipped to handle this amount of starch, not to mention the gluten and anti-nutrients.
So all of a sudden cooking is bad again. Since cooking is the main processing that’s done to grains.
He/she also says that "If you ate a grain in it’s natural state you would be eating a seed.". Ok, that’s all clear and good.
Now, let’s apply the same logic to animal products. For this I’m going to quote a girl there whose eating a raw vegan diet, very similar to what I recommend in Clear for Life. She put it so well.
Yeah I would too
I’m guessing there isn’t a meat eater on this site with the balls to pick up a chicken, slit its throat and start munching the way nature intended lol yuk
That’s how real carnivores eat their food. They don’t just select the muscle meats and some organs. Aside from bones lions eat almost all of their prey. They drink blood, lymph and other liquids. They relish on intestines and other organs. Often they even eat bone marrows.
And they eat it all raw and fresh. Right after the kill.
That’s how you eat animal products in their natural state. You don’t carefully select the best parts, cut out the disgusting fat, then hang the meat to soften and finally cook it thoroughly and add spices to make it taste better.
Of course when you challenge these meat eaters for it, the logic changes.
Also in terms of food in its natural state. I take the rule of preferring cooked chicken (roasted/grilled etc) rather than processed chicken nuggets. I will eat cooked sweet potatoes, rather than potato chips. Trying to eat food as close to their natural state as possible.
Or they get abusive, and this is where the intolerance towards dissents starts to rear its ugly head. This is a mild example compared to some abuses I’ve seen.
Oh ffs there were no cookers of course but there were these miracles called FIRES.
People have cooked for millenia. Why do you think our guts cannot cope with large amounts of raw meats? We have evolved away from that. There is nothing ‘unnatural’ about cooking OR WE WOULDNT FUCKING DO IT.
Then the posts move onto more personal level.
IN MY OPINION, you came into the thread to indirectly say that eating meat is not natural and is not right to do, obviously knowing this would annoy people. You’re post had nothing to do with the original post, you just had to get your two cents in there IMO. Then when people oppose what you’re saying, which you had to know would happen…they’re being argumentative right? lol, that’s pretty childish IN MY OPINION
Ad it’s just going to accelerate from that. How far? Depends on how much personal abuse she is willing to tolerate. IT ends when she shakes her head in frustration and just stops caring. Then the meat heads say ‘UGH’ and conclude that they have won the debate (sorry couldn’t resist). Dissent opinion has been silenced.
This doesn’t really help anyone. Pretty soon she concludes, like I have, that posting on these forums is just a huge waste of time. Her experience and expertise, that could have helped many people, is not available anymore. The fact remains that she cleared her acne. She’s getting attacked simply because she did it while going against the beef. And this happens to everybody who promotes vegan diets there.
Dissent is not tolerated in religion.
Finally I want to add that this is not a crusade against meat or meat eating. The only thing I have against meat eating is that the way animals are raised currently makes it an environmental disaster. I still eat meat occasionally. I don’t think that health wise it’s very smart, but I have other reasons for eating it.
Take this as a lengthy warning against religious and fanatic beliefs when it comes to diet. They don’t serve you or anyone else you come in contact with.
I believe that low-fat, raw vegan diet is health wise the best for humans. Other people disagree with me and that’s ok. I also know that people may have preexisting condition (such as food allergies) that make following this diet difficult, and can even lead to health problems. Therefore individual approach is always needed. This applies to all the other diets also, thus there is no single ultimate diet that fits everybody.
Just remember that any diet that takes you away from processed junk foods is a step to the right direction. Also anything that simplifies your eating is a step to the right direction.
Be well, and be sane.
—
Clear for Life - The Fun, Easy and Delicious Solution to Permanently Clear Skin.
November 8th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Seppo, you make a great point here, thanks for reminding people what is at the heart of things. Again, I appreciate your clear thinking.
Peace,
Suzanne
November 11th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Seppo I have read much about this and am ambivalent and confused when I read such opposing point of views. Here is a link that suggests that vegan diets are deficient. If you have time please read and reply back. I am interested to hear your side of this.
This is from the International Natural Hygiene society about the optimal diet…
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet.html
November 11th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Mickey, I don’t pay much attention to those diet debates anymore - and I’m much happier because of it. I can say from experience that the more you read and study the matter the more confused you are going to get.
You can use science to ‘prove’ anything you want, so I’m very skeptical about all sorts of studies and research on diet.
I’ve learned to put my common sense before any studies or books on diet. As a rule if something doesn’t make sense I don’t believe it.
Let’s see this in ‘action’.
So those people at the natural hygiene society say that vegetarian diets are deficient and that vegetarians suffer all sorts of deficiency problems.
That fails the common sense test miserably.
If that were true then all vegetarians would be in trouble. Still there are plenty of strict vegetarians who eat no animal products and who are also perfectly health and without any deficiency diseases. And some of them have been on these diets all of their lives, some even in many generations.
And there are many raw fooders who’ve been living on raw fruits and vegetables for 30 or so years. Dr. Graham is one example and there are many others. When you look at those people it’s obvious they don’t suffer from any deficiencies. They are among the healthiest and the most vibrant people alive.
And I think it’s quite ridiculous to suggest that all of them would secretly cheat on their diets. That their success would be because they cheat to make up for the deficiencies in their diets.
It really all depends how you compose your diet. You can make any diet deficient by not eating enough variety. If you eat only fruits you are going to get deficiencies. Because fruits lack in some minerals and few other nutrients. That’s why you need to eat plenty of greens also.
But equally easily you can make meat based diets deficient. Just eat little vegetables and you are sure to run into problems. Despite eating this ‘magical’ meat. The fact remains that meat is horribly deficient in many vitamins and minerals.
So nowadays I just ignore all the hoobla about diet. I know that what I eat today suits me. Should I start developing some problems I’d look into this again, but at the moment I just ignore all the diet talk and arguments.
November 13th, 2008 at 12:21 am
thanks for your advice! I am really developing peace of mind and “sanity”
November 17th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
If you feel well eating the way you choose more power to you. Mentally i would be find eating vegan but personally i have to eat some animal protien daily or i wont feel healthy and strong. My friend is the same way. I have met an old vegan couple before and they looked young and healthy, though ive seen more vegans that look unhealthy, i dunno. Mabye people are different. Those meat eating brain theories etc are based on evolution which is just a theory and with todays science proven false and outdated anyway.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Brandyn,
If you choose to eat meat, then please do so. I have no issues with other people eating meat. And if it gives you good results, then even better.
Yes, some vegans to not look so healthy. Not because of they are vegans but because they eat too much grains, tofu and processed crap. It has nothing to do with meat and everything to do with eating natural foods.
January 26th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
I love meat no doubt about it and preferably organic and free range. Do i eat huge portions of it when i do? Certainly not. I choose to eat certain foods in moderation and make sure I eat a lot of fruit and veges both raw and cooked. Both organic and non-organic depending on availability.
It comes down to a personal choice and getting the right information about nutrition. Do what works for you. I went three days without eating meat simply because I didn’t feel like it and wanted to eat vegan food. By following basic rules about combining foods I still ate healthily and felt good.It didn’t affect my acne and neither does meat. My biggest triggers are dairy, too much fat, caffeine, alcohol, refined sugar and refined flour. I’m not too sure about wheat and gluten as yet. But i have seen improvements in my skin and health just by making better choices and avoiding the things that are a trigger for my acne. It is different for everyone.
People fear what they don’t understand and I think this can apply to diets and nutrition. I met a vegan once who ate a lot of fries as her main staple, highly processed vegan foods and smoked like a chimney. Not exactly healthy, but I was knowledgeable enough to know that this person was not representative of all vegans and vegan diets. I too get tired of these debates. Things are taken out of context and results of one study or another are frequently interpreted to mean different things depending on whose debating what point. It can get quite confusing. Quite frankly I’m over it.
I do what suits me now, but Seppo’s info and those of others has helped me to form my own ideas. Let me be clear that what works for me may not work for another for whatever reason. I eat whatever I want. I’m fussy about what I eat - it has to be healthy and taste good! And yes I scrutinise nutrition panels and the ingredients list of every packaged food I pick up and look at! No trans fats for me. I’ll stick to fresh foods thanks and sometimes frozen veges and berries for the sake of convenience.
However, let’s not overlook the fact that the quality of the food being eaten is just as important as the type of food and the amount. Organic kale does not last long and needs to be eaten in less than a week once harvested. Kale that has been sprayed with chemicals lasts a lot longer, but doesn’t taste as good and has probably less nutrients and has toxic chemicals on it you have to wash off!. I speak from experience as i love this leafy green vegetable! I understand that not everybody can afford to eat organic fruit and vegetables regularly. But, should they avoid non-organic produce in favour of a diet high in processed food, grains, meat and fat? I think not.
Eat up your vegetables and fruit no matter who you are! And don’t forget your omega-3s. The more the better as your body will never feel satisfied nutrient wise if you don’t. I eat smaller portions of animal protein and grains these days because the quality of my food is better and I am naturally satisfied with less. I don’t get cravings or feel hungry all the time.I have not lost muscle mass because I eat less animal protein in favour of masses of vegetables and moderate amounts of fruit. Some days I eat more and some days less. I really enjoy the food I eat immensely, especially the occasional chocolate treat and the odd glass of pinot noir. I don’t calorie count everything. I don’t smoke or take medications. My weight stays within the normal healthy range. My blood pressure is normal. Although I exercise, I don’t go overboard with the cardio or resistance training so therefore I feel I am eating exactly to my bodies everyday needs, no more , no less. I have been married for nearly 18 years with 2 teenage sons, 17 and 16 years old, so hey I’m no spring chicken and nor was i born yesterday! But I think I’m doing okay for a 40 year old woman who likes to keep up to date with the latest nutrition advice. I’m no expert on the subject of diet and nutrition because I do this, but I do believe that eating well and leading a healthy lifestyle is important to staying physically and mentally healthy and happy
But you can make up your own mind…my teenage sons roll their eyes at me at the mere mention of healthy food vs junk food. My husband is a little more open minded. I keep them all informed nonetheless!